In 2019 the controversial Abu Dhabi document asserted that God wills “the pluralism and the diversity of religions” in apparently the same sense that He wills a plurality of races and sexes. It was Bishop Athanasius Schneider from Kazakhstan who secured from Pope Francis an informal clarification, when the pontiff verbally conceded that God’s willing of a plurality of religions is merely permissive. There is a strange poetry, therefore, to the fact that, this month, a renewed statement on the same topic was issued by the Pope together with leaders of other world religions in Kazakhstan itself.
On September 14-15, Pope Francis attended the VII Congress of Leaders of World and Traditional Religions in the Kazakh capital of Nur-Sultan, where he formally addressed its opening and concluding sessions. During his apostolic visit, the Pope also celebrated Holy Mass for the nation’s Catholic minority population and visited clergy and religious at the archdiocesan cathedral.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider, who spoke exclusively to the Catholic Herald, reflects below on the advantages and disadvantages of gatherings of this nature, and the implications and continued ambiguities in the clarification apparently presented in its final declaration.
He also contests the idea put forward by Pope Francis and promoted by the Vatican on social media, that “everyone” has a “right” to Heaven.
Here is our interview with Bishop Athanasius Schneider.
Diane Montagna (DM): Your Excellency, what impact did the Pope’s visit to Kazakhstan have on the faithful there?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider (AS): The Catholics of Kazakhstan form a “small flock” in the midst of a Muslim majority and considerable presence of Russian-Orthodox Christians. We see the pope not as a political leader but, with a supernatural perspective, as the successor of St Peter, the vicar of Christ on earth. His visit brings the presence of the universal Church closer to the faithful in Kazakhstan and demonstrates the catholicity of our Faith. The presence of the visible head of the Catholic Church can also lead non-Catholics to reflect more deeply on truth and move them to search for the true Church of God.
(DM): Pope Francis’s main reason for visiting Kazakhstan was to attend the Congress of Leaders of World and Traditional Religions. In his address, he never mentioned Jesus Christ or the Trinity, nor did he suggest that the Catholic Faith is the one true religion. Bearing in mind that he has to be diplomatic in such situations, could he not, at this conference whose theme was building a world of peace, mention the Prince of Peace?
(AS): Christians, and all the more so, the successors of the apostles—and in this case the successor of St Peter—should never be ashamed of Jesus Christ before anyone and should confess him as the only Saviour—and therefore the only true Prince of Peace. The apostles were not ashamed to confess publicly the uniqueness of Jesus Christ. St. Paul said: “Do not be ashamed of testifying to our Lord” (2 Tim 1:8). Interreligious meetings do not dispense the pope and other churchmen today from heeding the Lord’s words: “Whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of Man also be ashamed, when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels” (Mk 8:38). It is a pity that Pope Francis did not mention Jesus Christ during this congress. He missed such a unique occasion to confess Christ.
The apostles and the Catholic Church down the centuries have not been ashamed of publicly confessing Jesus Christ, even in meetings with unbelievers or other religions. We see this in the example of St Paul in the Areopagus in Athens: “He preached to them Jesus and the resurrection” (Acts 17:18). I think Pope Francis lost a chance to confess Christ as the Saviour and Prince of Peace openly before the interreligious assembly in Nur-Sultan.
It is worth recalling that, in 1893, an inter-religious meeting called “The Parliament of the World’s Religions” was held in Chicago. At the time, Catholic bishops—especially Bishop Bernard John McQuaid of Rochester (+1909)—and many lay faithful in the United States protested that the Catholic Church’s participation in such an interreligious meeting puts the Church, the religion founded by Christ with its unerring teaching, on the same footing with every pretense of religion.
In light of this danger, in 1895 Pope Leo XIII forbade Catholics from participating in similar meetings and congresses. With Pope Pius XI, the Catholic Church forbade such interreligious meetings. Explaining the fallacious arguments of their promoters, in 1928 he wrote:
“They hold it for certain that men destitute of all religious sense are very rarely to be found, they seem to have founded on that belief a hope that the nations, although they differ among themselves in certain religious matters, will without much difficulty come to agree as brethren in professing certain doctrines, which form as it were a common basis of the spiritual life. For which reason conventions, meetings and addresses are frequently arranged by these persons, at which a large number of listeners are present, and at which all without distinction are invited to join in the discussion, both infidels of every kind, and Christians, even those who have unhappily fallen away from Christ or who with obstinacy and pertinacity deny His divine nature and mission. Certainly, such attempts can nowise be approved by Catholics, founded as they are on that false opinion which considers all religions to be more or less good and praiseworthy, since they all in different ways manifest and signify that sense which is inborn in us all, and by which we are led to God and to the obedient acknowledgment of His rule” (Encyclical Mortalium Animos, 2).
Pope Francis concluded his address to the interreligious Congress, saying: “May we never aim at artificial and conciliatory forms of syncretism, for these are useless, but instead firmly maintain our own identities, open to the courage of otherness and to fraternal encounter. Only in this way, along this path, in these dark times in which we live, will we be able to radiate the light of our Creator.” Yet he made no effort to uphold Catholic identity in his speech, and he structured it around the sayings of the Muslim poet Abai (1845-1904). How is this an example of “firmly maintaining” a Christian identity?
Interreligious meetings today limit their spiritual horizon to a natural view of religion; hence Pope Francis spoke only of a Creator or of the Almighty. It is not sufficient “to irradiate the light of the Creator”; this is naturalism. The present age is a time of darkness precisely because it is closed to the true light, which is Christ: “The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world” (Jn 1:9). The majority of people today follow false religions, which reject the salvation offered by Jesus Christ. To adherents of non-Christian religions today, including Jews and Muslims, apply the words of Holy Scripture: they dwell in darkness and the shadow of death (Mt 4:16), because they do not accept Christ, the light of the world (Jn 8:12). The Catholic Church, and first and foremost the pope, should lovingly but without the slightest inhibition invite non-Christians to look upon “the great light, that has dawned” (Mt 4:16) and accept the words of the Incarnate God: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Mt 4:16-17).
There is no true supernatural light except Jesus Christ, who said: “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness but will have the light of life.” (Jn 8:12). Pope Francis seeks to defend himself against the accusation of syncretism, yet by engaging in promoting a natural view of religion, and by not confessing the uniqueness of Jesus Christ, he reveals himself as a de facto relativist in matters of religion. Hence, the ambiguous language regarding other religions, and the exhortation to be “open to the courage of otherness.”
In his address at the Reading of the Final Declaration and Conclusion of the Congress, Pope Francis relativizes the uniqueness and supernatural character of the grace of Christian prayer, when he de facto equates all places of worship of the various religions, saying: “It is impressive that each day millions and millions of men and women, of different ages, cultures and social conditions, join together in prayer in countless places of worship. This is the hidden force that makes our world move forward.” Indeed, acts ofidolatry and worship that displease God, i.e., all non-Christians worship, can never be a supernatural force that will bring true spiritual progress to mankind, since what is objectively not pleasing to God (“Thou shalt not have other gods besides Me!”), can never benefit man.
At the conclusion of the Pope’s visit to Kazakhstan, the Vatican tweeted out, from the pontiff’s official Twitter account, these lines from the address: “We defend everyone’s right to religion, to hope, to beauty: to Heaven.” Your Excellency, do Catholics believe we have a right to heaven?
Nobody has a right to heaven, for this would imply a right to God’s grace. Heaven is a pure gift of God that is based also on man’s cooperation with God’s grace. The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches: “With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator” (n. 2007).
These ecumenical meetings preceded Pope Francis. The Congress of Leaders of World and Traditional Religions first convened in 2003, grew out of Pope John Paul II’s visit to Kazakhstan in September 2001, and took as its model the Assisi meetings he convened in 2002. You have been critical of the Assisi meetings, too. How would you change the way the Church conducts interreligious dialogue?
The purpose of interreligious meetings is to promote peace and mutual understanding in a world marked by a great diversity of peoples, opinions, and religions. This objective has its positive significance. However, such meetings where, at least externally, all religions are considered equal, gives the impression of a sort of supermarket of religions.
Yet, the Catholic religion is the only true religion, willed by God, and there is no other religion that pleases God but faith in His Son Jesus Christ, true God and true man, the only Saviour of mankind. Interreligious meetings as they are conducted today, if not theoretically then surely practically, place Jesus Christ on the same level with religious figures of other world religions. This undermines the Church’s mission to teach all nations to come to Jesus Christ, their Saviour. More than ever, the Catholic Church must renew the missionary zeal of the apostles and early Christians in bringing Christ, with love and conviction, to all nations and to all religions.
Instead of conducting interreligious meetings on a global level, which can also be used by political elites to serve their ends and risk becoming a grandiose spectacle, it would be better to have meetings between adherents of various religions on more personal, familiar, and local levels, and to develop love and mutual respect where people actually live. There will be no lasting social and political peace without the grace of Christ and without the observance of the Commandments of God and the natural law which God has inscribed in the heart of every man on earth.
There was a great effort after 9/11 to bring religions into dialogue with one another. Wasn’t it incumbent upon religions to come together to promote peace after such an atrocity?
Interreligious meetings on a world scale are an impressive display or show of the diversity of religions. In fact, they are used by ideological elites and groups to promote religious relativism, i.e., that there is no unique and true religion above all others. However, religious diversity is not something positive but negative in the eyes of God, which He tolerates or permits, as He permits our sins. Diversity of religions is clearly against the First Commandment of God. Global interreligious meetings have proven ineffective against the threat of war. In fact, what followed the interreligious Assisi meetings in 1986 and 2002 was not a time of peace but of cruel wars: the war in Ex-Yugoslavia, which began in 1991, the war in Ruanda in 1994, the first Iraq war in 1991, the second Iraq war in 2003, the war in Syria in 2018, and now the utterly tragic war in Ukraine.
During the VII Congress of Leaders of World and Traditional Religions in Nur-Sultan a conflict broke out between Azerbaijan and Armenia, despite the fact that the highest-ranking religious representatives from these countries were participating in the congress. Peace between countries and world peace cannot be achieved through impressive congresses, which undermine the uniqueness of Jesus Christ. God will not grant lasting peace unless the world accepts, in faith, the Prince of Peace, Jesus Christ. Moreover, peace is a long-term and difficult process that begins at the grassroots level, starting in families and in neighborhoods between people of diverse religions and ethnicities.
Kazakhstan has been praised as a world center for dialogue between religions. In light of the Church’s history in this land, what special witness can Kazakh Catholics give today?
Kazakhstan’s recent history is marked by a cruel repression of people from diverse nationalities and religions. In Stalinist times, Kazakhstan was a kind of a huge Gulag (concentration camp), where all had to suffer. The common suffering brought everyone together. Therefore, members of different religions and Christian confessions peacefully live together, avoiding any signs of syncretism or religious relativism.
Your Excellency, is there anything you wish to add?
The final Declaration of the VII Congress of Leaders of World and Traditional Religions contains, in paragraph 10, a change with respect to the 2019 Abu Dhabi Document on Human Fraternity. The latter text asserted that: “The pluralism and the diversity of religions, color, sex, race and language are willed by God in His wisdom, through which He created human beings.” Initially, in the final Declaration at this year’s congress in Nur-Sultan, the term “religions” was included alongside skin color, culture, etc. as being willed by God in His wise will. However, at the request of several delegates, the official text of the Declaration (which contrary to media reports had not been signed) was changed and published on the Congress website. It now reads: “We note that pluralism in terms of differences in skin color, gender, race, language, and culture are expressions of the wisdom of God in creation. Religious diversity is permitted by God and, therefore, any coercion to a particular religion and religious doctrine is unacceptable.”
This change could be an improvement. It raises, however, the further difficulty that the “permission” in question might be supposed to be more than merely metaphysical (i.e., God allows other religions to exist) and be thought of as moral (i.e., God approves of the existence of other religions). This latter claim would be seriously erroneous.
Let us hope that the Holy See will start avoiding any sign or action that promotes religious relativism, cease participating in global interreligious meetings, and do everything possible to proclaim to the entire world, with conviction and love, the uniqueness of Jesus Christ. “We are not ashamed of the Gospel” (cf. Rom 1:16), was the motto of the apostles and of the Catholic Church for the past two thousand years, and it should be our motto today. May the Pope also wholeheartedly and sincerely proclaim, in word and deed, to the powerful of this world and to all non-Christians the uniqueness of Jesus Christ, the only Saviour of mankind.
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